für finnische Panzerbüchse
20x115 = unbekannt
20x105B = Solthurn(short):S18-100 ATR&S18-350 aircraft, Lb/MG 204(early)
20x138B = Solthurn (Long): Flak 30+38 AA, KwK 30+38 AFV, MG C/30 L air, Breda M 35, Scotti and Lathi, L 40 AA, plus S18-1000/1100 und Lathi ATRs 134g loading was for MG C/30 L
Angaben aus dem Anhang von Rapid Fire
This auction is for the pictured German military 2cm, 20mm, 20x138b Inert training shell. Designed to be a safe inert trainer fron the start. 8 inches in overall length, copper washed steel casing with a knurling band on the case for identification. A wooden tip is in place, looks repainted and is a bit loose fitting but attached. In good overall condition. Headstamp is clearly marked by the maker and looks to be dated 1939 and bears a military acceptance stamp. This round saw early wartime use in the anti aircraft Flak guns, light tanks and light armored cars. Makes a neat display. Shipping $7.00 *********
A couple of questions
First: The last posts I saw stated that you would not be updating after July of 2000? Is this correct and can we in the US still contribute to your pages? I have learned much about the KP31 in addition to the Q & A section and would like to help if its still possible.
Second: I would like to ask a few questions - I have recently acquired a deactivated Lahti L/39 that I would like to repair and shoot. I know there are others out there with the same problem of ammunition availability that we have here in the US so posting answers would be the best. The 20X138B cartridge is quite difficult to find in this country while the 20X103 US is very common. The major problem from my point of view is that while the 20X138B has chamber pressures in the 3000 atm range the 20X103 is in the 4200 atm range. I feel that the barrels available will withstand the pressures but I am worried about the locking mechanisms of a 50+ year old rifle that was designed for significantly lower pressure.
I know that it is possible to load the 20X103 to a lower pressure but I am aware that simply reducing the powder charge can easily increase the pressure to explosive proportions. I do not have the knowledge of years of reloading or of the principles involved. The 20X103 normally uses 590gr of winchester WC872 and a projectile weight of 1500gr or 620gr WC872 and a projectile weight of 2000gr. Both of those loadings, according to the US military cartridge specification book, have chamber pressures in the 4100-4250 atm range. After all that I suppose my question is this : is there a powder and loading that will allow me to load the 20X103 with projectile weights of 1000-2400gr to a pressure that is more nearly that of the 20X138B? Should I just do as some others have done and machine 20X138B cases from bar stock and shoot more infrequently?
Thanks for your pages and help: Frank
First. We tried (in vane) to collect our nominal annual fee USD 10.00 by the international money transfer system, until 1st July 2000. Then we hired a P.O. Box for payments in cash, but in the late October 2000 we have no more than three Privileged Visitors (living abroad) on our register. It is very frustrating to publish the website in English for three Patron Visitors and several thousands of "pirate visitors" (including armies and firearms manufactures!). Updating of GOW/Universal website (in English) has been continuing until these days, but I have chosen the questions for Q & A section more carefully and we are suppressed production of articles in English.
There are less than a handful of gunwriters contributing to GOW sites. Another site is published in Finnish only, and because Finnish visitors are keeping up our activity, they are also privileged to get information by GOW/Finnish site. As you can see, we are nowadays publishing not only Q & A section "Tokko tietoa on?" or "Kalkkivaari" causeries, but also technical/ historical articles in Finnish; more and more of them. If we shall receive more USDs than Finnish Marks into our P.O. Box, we are able (and willing) to pay more attention to evolution of GOW/Universal site, but if the GOW/Finnish site is more profitable, the effort of updating and evolution shall become concentrated to it, and our Universal site shall fade away. We are not greedy for money: We are just willing to SURVIVE.!
Second: I think, the most advisable way is to turn 20 mm Solo Long cases from a brass or steel bar stock and load them with the reduced charges of quickly burning powder (able to ignite and burn under the low chamber pressures). L-39 is unable to stand full 3100 pressures, if deactivated and "regenerated" to become shootable again! Please, do not try to load reduced charges with the usual "cannon powders" like WC 872, even into the "Everlasting cases" with considerably reduced powder space.
You must forget automatic functioning of the regenerated action and even the magazine feed, when shooting cartridges loaded into the Everlasting cases of rather brittle brass or free-cut steel, containing sulphur and lead to make the chips short. The brass contain etwa 3 % lead and just 57 % copper to become easy to turn with automatic machines (originally invented by Christopher M. Spencer, known as an "automatic screw-machine with a cam guidance"). Recommended pressure level is about similar tho that of a 12 ga/ 3" Magnum shotshell, id est: Preferably less than 1000 atmospheres.
All the rifle powders are unsuitable for reduced charges; even the quickly-burning Finnish VihtaVuori N110. One defiant Finn didn't believe on the friendly warnings, when he was loading cartridges for his regenerated L-39. After the first shot he was lying on his back (SIC!) with a broken collar-bone and three broken ribs. Some fragments of his rifle are lost forever. The Broemel QuickLOAD program is able to compute handloads even for the 20 x 138 mm Solothurn Long cartridges. It gave a safe combination of components as follows:
Brass case for a German Anti-Aircraft cannon (B.S.W.). Projectile weight: 120 grams, usual bore-riding projectile with a copper or sintered iron driving/ rotation band. Charge: 8.0 grams of VihtaVuori N310 powder (SIC!), preferably in the cotton-gauze bag rammed into head-end of the case. Calculated muzzle velocity is subsonic, slightly less than 300 meters per second with a chamber pressure 1500 atm (=less than half from an allowed maximum).
For the cases with reduced volume (cylindrical powder space, diameter 20 mm) the charge must be further reduced, and the chamber pressure 1500 atmospheres may be too high for regenerated L-39 action.
"Of a truth I say unto you": Deactivation of firearms is a criminal offence; a felony; a more serious crime than a murder, a genoside, or the WW II Holocaust! Deactivation itself is a routine of gunsmithing trade, but the politicians and those lousy legislators, enacting laws or acts insisting on deactivations, are deserved a legitimate punishment by the most painful methods developed by Gestapo or KGB - or Satan himself / herself.
1910 MM; PT
Hallo Herr Moeller,
angehängt 2 Bilder der finnischen Panzerbüchse Lahti 39:
Freundliche Grüße, Heiko Schiemann, Kanada, Freitag, 20. Juni 2008 15:02
Danke Herr Schieman,
nächste Woche werde ich mich um die 20 mm MSG kümmern.
Waidmannsheil, Lutz Möller,
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